Buffering Dbl palm and upper

Dandy_J and I were having a discussion about this last weekend, and we need some clarification on this.

When Kage blocks Akira DE(+3) and does his upper(33P), Akira can beat his upper with buddering the fast timed double palm.

Since Akira's in -3, I thought the Dbl palm'd out in 15 frames which'd be at the same frame when Kage's upper'd come out.

Dandy said that buffering Dbl palm takes 1 extra frame in standing, so it'd be a 16 frame dbl palm. The reason why the upper loses to dbl palm in this situatuation is buffering upper takes 1 extra frames there.


Can anyone clarify this? Thx in advance.

 

Maddy, you're method of adding disadvantage frames to execution frames is confusing I think heh...

To anyone confused, we were talking about Akira at -3 (after blocked DE). Akira buffers dbl palm and kage buffers upper, and dbl palm wins.

As far as I know, dbl palm will come out at 13 frames, and upper at 16, since 1 frame is required to buffer from crouching for either move. Maddy said that if you buffer quickly, they can come out at 12/15 frames respectively.

As far as I know, there is no way to get rid of that extra frame when buffering a crouching move from standing. Another example:

Any move that is -7, you cannot do a FC move as reverse nitaku. In training mode, set the CPU to guard all, and throw. Do + (blocked), and try to beat the throw with 33P (his FC upper). You will get thrown.

 

As far as I know, if you input the crouch dash very early, the 1 frame delay does not take place. I know this is true for moves with dash in them (akira's DE for example, can beat low punch after hits if buffered correctly), and believe it is true for FC modified moves.

The key is inputting the crouch dash in the first half of the buffering period when only directional inputs are recognized (according to the evo disc glossary)

 

Standing attacks with a 44/66/11/33 input can be buffered without adding the extra frame by buffering early like you said. But actual crouching moves cannot be buffered without the extra frame AFAIK.

 

Interesting question. Dandy_J, if crouch moves require 1 frame then wouldn't Akira's dpalm need 2 extra frames? I.e. from crouch, (1 frame) + (1 frame). I don't know the answer, though I do think if you are already at crouch you don't need the extra frame. So if Kage blocks a low attack with -15 such as Lion's , the upper is guaranteed.

In the example Maddy cited, if both Akira's dpalm and Kage's upper execute at the right time, dpalm wins because of the higher damage.

 

Ah, thanks for clearing that up, ignore my bit about needing 2 frames.

Rats, this means Jeffry's + is effectlvely 17 frames?

 

Theres a way to buffer in cd moves and dash moves without expending an extra frame.

http://www.dcn.ne.jp/~kazu68k/ft_a/system/1f_syohi.html

The first 2 examples show you how 1 fr is expended (wrongly buffered).

The other 3 are examples of 1 fr saved.

 

Yes, that's what I thought too.
Even if you are buffering dbl palm in standing, you can still buffer it without spending extra frame when you buffer it after a move. That was my understanding.

 

[ QUOTE ]
alucard said:
Theres a way to buffer in cd moves and dash moves without expending an extra frame.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is correct. Moves that have a dash or CD motion (but are not actual FC or WS moves) can be buffered without wasting frames.

With Akira in training set the CPU to guard all; counter with low P. Do + (blocked), then DE or SDE. If you buffer quickly, you can beat the low P. If you buffer casually, they will come out at 15 frames instead of 14.

But FC and WS moves buffered from a standfing position will always have that extra frame. The reasoning being: you do not need to dash/CD to do a SDE or Yoho; they are standing moves. But the game DOES need to register a CD input to do a crouching move from a standing position. Hence the example with Jacky above.

Ice-9, dbl palm taking 2 extra frames makes no sense. Only 1 extra frame is added for the crouch dash. does not constitute a dashing motion, so there is no place for another extra frame.

 

I think Dandy's right, it makes sense that the game couldn't "overlook" the CD/dash motion if it were required for correct execution of the move.

Myke, the evo disc mentions the first half of the buffer window, where only directional inputs are recognized. Wherever the dash is inputted on either side of this halfway point is what makes all the 1/60 cases different. Thanks for the explanation of those charts!

 

I had thought of the 1-frame penalty, if it exists, as occuring before subsequent commands to complete the attack and that the penalty occurs because the game needs to recognize the CD motion at the end of the buffer window. Hence occurs after the window. This is why I had doubts about whether the 1-frame penalty exists. Clearly, for theoretical/practical purposes, it does.

 

Thanks alot for the info on this thread, been thinking about it alot and argued abit on the irc aswell.
I have been trying it out alot now, using method 4, doing (17frames but you get 1 frame for the dash normally) with Brad against a opponent recorded to do at -5. I can do it but far from as often as I would wish for it to even be considered the gamble in VS. What I want to know is if someone can do this constantly, aka if it's worth practicing to a high level.

/KiwE

 

The only time I can think of it being worth it is when you have a lot of time to plan your next step. For instance, akira blocks Shun's mule kick. Akira is at +13, and gets a free p k. He knows he will be at +2 after this, and wants to input a DE to beat out the opponent's low punch. It would be a lot easier to get a 14 frame DE here, just with all the time beforehand he has to plan.

 

Akira can do P,K ->SDE to beat a low P, but even with time to think about it beforehand, it is really hard to get SDE out in 14 frames. P,K-> DE is easier, but it's still hard as you have to start buffering early to avoid frame loss. (It still loses to girl's punch)

P,K->double palm will beat all, but you will have to take a bigger risk.


Same thing applies to the situation when you block Shun's Chowan in Evo. You get +2, so you can try buffering SDE or DE to beat punches. In this case, difficulty increases due to lack of time to think, so even getting DE is very difficult.

Akira's FT change move 6P comes handy in those kind of situations, but it can't be done in crouch, so that's why it's not so great IMO.

 

Is a 14 frame SDE really possible? I was trying it in training mode, and even with slow motion, I couldn't get the P, K -> SDE to beat a low punch. I can't imagine it being applicable in a real match, but I'd like to know if anyone has gotten it to happen at all.

 

Yeah PK -> SDE is totally possible. P+K (blocked) -> SDE is also possible (but really fucking hard).

 

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Is a 14 frame SDE really possible?

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Did you play Ryan any at evo2k4? /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Absolutely. Set the CPU Jeff to guard and answer . () will CH but as indicated before, you can't be casual about it. I haven't tested P,K (hit) SDE vs low punch so I can't speak to that...all I can say is the recovery on Akira's P,K has always felt sorta funky to me (half the time my "fastest" doublepalm after it is about 48 frames)...maybe this is the case for you as well?

One note of interest here...if you watch the replays on the evo disk and check out the inputs, you might notice plenty of buffered commands while akira (in the kyasao v ohsu match especially) is in a defensive/ posture.

But a 14 frame on reaction SDE? I don't want to play him.

 

In Evo, Shun has a 11 frame p to beat your SDE or DE.
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