Minor Balance Related Pet Peeves

Pretty sure the game would be a lot more balanced if each of Akira's Jabs did around 75-95 damage on Normal hit.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

And everyone had 20,000 hp...

And fought in outer space...

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Being light weight doesn't mean anything. She is in the same class as Sarah, Aoi, Eileen, etc., and they don't benefit from the same advantages she has.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And, BTW. If you don't like Pai, what you think about Lion and Eileen? Awesome sabakis, tons of KND low/mids, strong juggles, safe starters, versatility like hell. Only think they are not as good as Pai are reversals and Low throws, but FE in sabakis they both excels much more, in low/mid and circular game too. And what players like Chibita can do with Lion is madness. Is he too strong too? </div></div>

I really think you need to play the game more.

Eileen has the worst throws in the entire game. She is nowhere near as versatile as Pai and she definitely does not excel in every category.

Lion is closer, but he only has one 60 point throw, just like every other strong striker character who has one powerful throw direction (Lau, Akira, Kage, Lei, etc.).</div></div>
Ok, I get it. You simply have only one true at your side. Right. The law come with you and who oppose you will be assimilated. Or something like that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Did you ever play Lion? Or Eileen? Or... Oh. I forgot that thing with you and the only ONE true standing at your side. Right. I will go to prepeare myslef to be assimilated.

 

Huh?

 

Re: TFT

I hope it doesn't feel like everyone's ganging up on you...but it's worth pointing out that both Goh and Blaze have better throwing games than Pai.

Pai has:
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif 60 pts
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif 50-60 pts
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif ~40 pts
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif At least 10 pts

Goh has:
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif 70 pts
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif 65 pts
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif At least 52 pts
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif 47 pts

Blaze has:
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif 60 pts
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif 55 pts
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif 55 pts
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif 42 pts
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif for walls and R.O.

Both Goh and Blaze CLEARLY have better throwing games than Pai.

It's also worth pointing out that it's difficult to do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif with no loss in frames...e.g. when Pai wants to dash up and throw, she usually can't go for /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif.

 

Re: TFT

First, I think your information is incorrect.

Pai's 1kk doesn't require MC for the second k to connect. It only requires mC. Also, it's only 14 frames to execute. Jacky's 1p is 20.

Second, I absolutely disagree with your judgment.

Pai's 1kk alone is comparable to Jacky's 1pk. She sacrifices safety for faster execution, but saftey is not as much of an issue with lows which are much harder to guard against.

The crescents and 66p+k are just icing on her low game cake.

 

Maybe we are just using different words. Lei's 6k and k both cause crumble / stumbles which are very hard to struggle out of (and pretty much impossible on MC).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ground throws never grant you ground punch. You need to struggle and roll to the appropriate side...... </div></div>

And that's why I said "almost" guaranteed. Each word is in there for a reason.

In my over 2,000 games in the arcades here in Tokyo, I have never once seen anyone successfuly struggle out of a ground punch after Goh's head toward, face down ground throw.

 

Re: TFT

I agree that Goh has a better throw game than Pai (I stated that in an earlier post), but I'm not sure I agree with Blaze having a better throw game. I would argue that they are equivalent (but I could be convinced that Blaze's is a little bit better).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's also worth pointing out that it's difficult to do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif with no loss in frames...e.g. when Pai wants to dash up and throw, she usually can't go for /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. </div></div>

Actually, I've always wanted a 2_6p+g for my Goh because it's the best way to punish a whiffed high. It also allows for easy mix between shrm and throw (for Pai - double palm lift and throw). I think it would be harder for Pai players if the motion was a 270 (like Sarah) or even a 180 like Blaze. I see the crouch dash motion as one of it's advantages.

 

Re: TFT

Yes.</div></div>

The logical conclusion of your position must be that slams are meaningless then. Which is simply not true. Do you think AM2 should just make the GS 60pts and PGS 80pts of damage then?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lion is closer, but he only has one 60 point throw, just like every other strong striker character who has one powerful throw direction (Lau, Akira, Kage, Lei, etc.). </div></div>No, he has two directions with 60+ damage, HCB and 2_6.</div></div>

You're absolutely right. While I think the lack of low throws and easy juggles is a significant difference between the two, I do think I need to reconsider Lion and Pai in the context of each other.

 

Re: TFT

You could be convinced Blaze's throw game is better than Pai's?? It should be obvious!! While Pai's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif throw is better than 50 pts damage, it's definitely not as good as 60 pts damage. Here's a way to think about it...how often can you ukemi just in time? For me it's probably 80% of the time. 10 pts difference * 20% chance you get it = 2 pts average damage. So against me /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is only worth 52 pts damage.

Now compare Blaze with Pai

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif
Blaze: 55 pts
Pai: 60 pts
Pai is slightly better

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif
Blaze: 60 pts
Pai: 52 pts
Blaze is better

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif
Blaze: 55 pts
Pai: 40 pts
Blaze is MUCH better

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif
Blaze: 42 pts
Pai: 10 pts
Blaze is MUCH better

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif
Blaze: Has one
Pai: Does not
Blaze is MUCH better

I hope from the above you see that your annoyance with Pai has blinded you to how she really compares to other characters.

Also, for me, I have no problems doing 180 or 270 from a crouching position so the fact that I have to crouch dash to get /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is absolutely a major handicap.

Oh yeah, and to rub it in some more /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif -- Jacky's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif absolutely rocks. IMO this is the BEST poking low attack in the game, and it can cause decent damage too on counter.

 

Re: TFT

I definitely cannot Just TR 8 out of 10 times and maybe you're just much, much better than me (which is definitely possible) but I think you're exaggerating when you say 8 out of 10. I play lots and lots of people here in Japan. They Just TR my Goh's 66k (CH), 6pp maybe 3 out of 10 tens (or less). IIRC, you can Just TR and regular TR out of Pai's 2_6p+g but you don't get the damage reduction unless it is Just TR. Just to confirm, are you sure you're getting the Just TR 8 out of 10 times? I think a more fair percentage would be to say 50%, which personally, I still think is high.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now compare Blaze with Pai

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif
Blaze: 55 pts
Pai: 60 pts
Pai is slightly better</div></div>

Also you get an almost guaranteed ground punch for Pai if the opponent doesn't TR (which again, is not easy). Test it and let me know what you think.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif
Blaze: 60 pts
Pai: 52 pts
Blaze is better</div></div>

I would say 55 - 57. But most of the time 60. Also you get an almost guaranteed ground punch here too.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif
Blaze: 55 pts
Pai: 40 pts
Blaze is MUCH better</div></div>

Yep.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif
Blaze: 42 pts
Pai: 10 pts
Blaze is MUCH better</div></div>

I don't agree with this. Pai's grab gives a free low throw too (40 - 45 pts) for an aggregate of 50 - 55. Even if you're going to say it's easily broken, it sets Pai up incredibly well. -12 disadvantage doesn't equal 0 damage.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif
Blaze: Has one
Pai: Does not
Blaze is MUCH better</div></div>

But this is so situational. A good player makes this throw meaningless because he's never letting Blaze have his back to the wall / edge.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope from the above you see that your annoyance with Pai has blinded you to how she really compares to other characters.

Also, for me, I have no problems doing 180 or 270 from a crouching position so the fact that I have to crouch dash to get /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is absolutely a major handicap.</div></div>

I think you're in the minority though 'cause you're a Jeff (Wolf?) player. Most or all Pai players (like Akira players) generally master crouch dash before they master 180 - 270. Also this would be 180 or 270 from crouch, which I would argue makes the non-Pai player lose far more frames than the 2_6p+g would.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh yeah, and to rub it in some more /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif -- Jacky's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif absolutely rocks. IMO this is the BEST poking low attack in the game, and it can cause decent damage too on counter. </div></div>

Wha~? I'd much rather have any full crescent knock down in the game.

Or Pai or Lau's 1kk or Lion's 1k (fast execution, follow up or knockdown).

Or Akira's 3p+k (much safer on guard and only 5 frame longer execution; also much better damage on MC).

Or Lion's 43p (good damage on regular hit, long distance).

Maybe they block low's much better where you play, but the players here don't do that well against them. Being safe on guard is much, much, much less important to me for a low than fast execution.

The BEST low poke? No way dude.

 

Re: TFT

You are SO self-concentrated on YOUR true you never recognize you use arguments which are going against themselfs? This is just en example - at one side you argue that something goes for your arguments because "only good players will break this" just to argue few lines later that "it's meaningless because good players will break this". Oh, man...

 

Re: TFT

Yo Jeff whassup?

He actually plays in Tokyo.

 

Re: TFT

I didn't mention the 'requirement' for 1kk to connect at all. I said you cannot check hit when 1k connect on MC before pressing the 2nd k. When you can't do that on MC why mention mC? Jacky can check hit both mC and MC.

Your point on 1k being faster than Jacky's 1p is noted. Probably the arcade you frequents has Jackys rarely doin 1p,k and Pais doing alot of 1kk and they have difficulty guarding lows. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Which arcade you hang out? Club SEGA BayArea?

 

And that's why I said "almost" guaranteed. Each word is in there for a reason.

In my over 2,000 games in the arcades here in Tokyo, I have never once seen anyone successfuly struggle out of a ground punch after Goh's head toward, face down ground throw. </div></div>

Oh you meant stumble. Sorry my bad.

But if you always roll to the correct side, its "never" guaranteed?

Again which arcade do you go to? I frequent Japan alot and would love to check out such gameplay and style.

 

Re: TFT

I thought you had some points, and Ice-9 had some other, but what's above is wrong I think.

First Lion' 4,3+P can be seen from miles away against good competition. Unless it's purposely made to go under your opponent's attack it will be blocked on reaction at best or escaped into even more trouble at worst. (And I play Lion so I KNOW it gets blocked it's not just a textbook comment ^^).

Lion's 1K is also not as good as you may think, -30 on block (speaks for itself), and when done a litttle too far away only one hit will connect leaving you in trouble.

Imo Lion's best Lows are 2+K+G, 1+K+G and 1+P,P

Also Akira's 3+P+K being 5 frames slower than Jacky 1P is not to be taken slightly as it's what makes it "easily" blockable on reaction. This kinda change the use of the move itself, ie more used to go under moves and get a counter hit than a straight poke move. Above 20 frames exe, lows become more and more guardable on reaction imo.

Anyway best low poke is Shun 2+K /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Re: TFT

Unicorn, I understand that you're trying to contribute but I still don't think we are seeing eye to eye. Do you really think Just TR'ing is equivalent to ring positioning? One of them requires very strict timing. The other just means you don't chase your opponent all the way to the wall / edge. They are very different in that anyone can do the latter but no one can do the former perfectly all the time.

 

Re: TFT

I see. Apologies - I misread your post. Still, I'm not sure that it matters that much. We can both agree that hit checking on mCs is easy enough right (e.g. whiff)? On MC, Pai's 1k leaves her at a tiny disadvantage (and her 10 frame punch will still beat any mid) so I don't see why it matters whether or not you can hit check on MC. But maybe I'm missing something.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your point on 1k being faster than Jacky's 1p is noted. Probably the arcade you frequents has Jackys rarely doin 1p,k and Pais doing alot of 1kk and they have difficulty guarding lows. Correct me if i'm wrong.</div></div>

Well honestly, I don't even have beef with Pai or Jacky's 1kk / 1pk. I think they are fine. But I'd much rather have Pai's faster / unsafe low than Jacky's slower / safer low. 14 frames is the same speed as an elbow and faster than my Goh's 6pp. Cry me a river!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which arcade you hang out? Club SEGA BayArea? </div></div>

I actually have no idea which arcades in the game correspond to what in real life. I generally go to Shibuya Hi-Tech Land cause it's close to where I live. I also go to the Club SEGA in Akihabara at least once a month cause Akihabara is just so awesome that I have to visit at least once a month. I sometimes go to Nishispo in Shinjuku, but that place is too damn hardcore. All the lower dan players (1-5) are sub-sub-sub characters for players who have much higher skills.

That being said, I'd love to get some instruction or play time with an English speaking VF player. If you're ever in Tokyo, let me know and I can definitely meet you at the arcade of your choice (within Tokyo of course).

I only have a 50% win rate though so don't be mislead into thinking I'm good or anything. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Just wondering, what is the correct side for Goh's head toward, face down ground throw. I'm not trying to be annoying or anything, I really have no idea. And like I said, I've never seen a ground punch after it successfully struggled out of.