Morals

Re: Well TT

1) Well fuck I wish you had said " The evade must begin before the striking attack for the delay to be successful" earlier. All this time I've been thinking you were arguing that a evade didn't register to be succsesful or failed one up until the 6th or 7th frame as a constant - even in an even situation - and that's why I reacted =))))) Glad to finally have that cleared.

2) Isn't hard at all. Once again, have you even tried it yourself? The reason it's not hard is mainly do to being a high attack and the motion makes me crouching so I can mC it. Doesn't yoho naturally have a built in delay btw do to it's motion? Aka if you have 6 frames advantage you can't win over a 12 frame punch done instantly?

3) [ QUOTE ]
The point of a standing P is to shift the game in your favor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing to shift, +6 is basicly as good as it gets. Feels so silly throwing that away for a chance at +8 (MC) and a downgrade in all other cases.

And the last part was just kinda a reasesment of it's use in RN all in all (there is 6 frames wasted wether one wants it or not prior to doing another move as you get -6 from it being blocked). If the opponent does a attack instantly he'll win with anything up to 14+6 = 20 frames against it and if he tries to throw you get a poor float of mC. So it's only use is just against the opponent trying to do a delayed attack if done imideatly and then it would be better to do something which ventured better against the throw aswell. The point about sweeps was good, hadn't thought about that at all (but will have to be 20frame + sweeps if done instantly which they will be do to being circular). Still sounds like a hard gamble to get the on MC in any situation that's -6. I'd rather do a byakko and limit the opponents options of counterattack or something if I really wanted to keep on the offence like that but then again the is "safe" if further gaurded and I don't play Aki. What about using 46p? It would even be + on the gaurding of it, same speed and decent payoff (combo) on mC against a throw aswell.

/KiwE (Amazing how one always learn the most when talking shit like this)

 

Re: Nah...

Shang, I could try to explain further to help you improve your game (or grasp of theory fighter, at least), but wtf should I with your kind of posting attitude? It's just not worth the effort.

 

Re: Well TT

2) ach, forgot abotu that, im trying to give a situation where you need to time something to the frame (i forget why <_<) how about:

wolf vs akira, akira does SDE -> evade, or SDE -> knee. Delay a 4p to beat both.

Also, the 1 frame delay in inputting a CD or dash - you can avoid this delay if you input the dash very early in the buffer. Some combos require this (yoho, p, shrm, DJK in open vs kage), but it can also help anywhere.

3) The point of trading the +6 for another advantage is the opponent KNOWS he is in -6 the first time, and is reacting accordingly. After the P hits, his plan is already over and most likely will not be able to react to your next move, which you DID have planned. This is why p -> throw works so well.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Well fuck I wish you had said " The evade must begin before the striking attack for the delay to be successful" earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]

well that would have taken away a lot of fun =P

 

Re: Well TT

[ QUOTE ]
KiwE said:
Still sounds like a hard gamble to get the on MC in any situation that's -6.

[/ QUOTE ]
it's not as weak as you think. let's take it step by step.

you're fighting an akira and he does a SDE which you guard. he is at -6. what do you do? your normal expectations are that at -6 your opponent will do some sort of defensive, non-attacking technique like ETEG. whatever that technique is, it's highly likely to include an evade.
therefore you have three choices: throw, circular, or delayed attack (usually some sort of heavy attack to take a large chunk of life off his bar /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ). by immediately buffering another SDE, the akira player will remove both your delayed heavy attack and throw options. also, if you don't have a fast full-circular move then he will also beat that (e.g, brad's ++ will get beaten). hence you are now faced with a bizarre situation where you're making a hard choice when you're at +6; do you go for a fast attack hoping he'll SDE (risking the evade) or do you throw hoping he'll evade (risking an SDE in the guts). you could do a delayed attack, but again you're at risk from an SDE /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

this is why reverse nitaku can be such a nightmare. you're forced to make tough choice when you're at +6! sounds crazy but it's true. of course, it's not quite as clear cut as that, and if your opponent constantly does SDE > SDE then you'd be a shit player if you didn't hammer him for it, but in my mind that is the basic argument.
/versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Re: Well TT

well heres the big question kiwe
can you within the 2 frame leeway of -4 and -6 be able to distinguish the difference of normal DE to SDE and react appropriately in the situation?

the similarity of both moves in animation should be enough to throw any player off 1 frame to do a hit/stance check

statisitcally it doesnt make sense, but once you're in the game its a whole different story

 

Re: Nah...

[ QUOTE ]
ice-9 said:

Shang, I could try to explain further to help you improve your game (or grasp of theory fighter, at least), but wtf should I with your kind of posting attitude? It's just not worth the effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man I was gonna leave it as it, but man.. ass you are a funny, or stupid dude. You didn't think I was going to waste my time to have a real conversation with you in the first place did you? HAHAHAH "to help you improve your game "!!11!, tell you what why don't you try to help your own selfsteem by not having your gf making an idiot of herself on the video camera by making stupid comments about you and about something she is abusolutely clueless about? err? On top of that, you are obivously too much of a fucktard to realize you are a fucking moron in those clip, bitch and whine about losing to someone who probably think you are some idiot in the first place.. or maybe you were bitching to make your gf think you actually had a chance to win to begin with, so she could still imagine your dick is longer than it really is at night. Either way, you are an idiot. and next time before you offer advice see people actually cared.

ass9 = rich spoiled faggot who's brain is too small for his education, so he talks out of his ass. ass-9~

Here is some additional Advice for ass:

 

Re: Well TT

[ QUOTE ]
this is why reverse nitaku can be such a nightmare. you're forced to make tough choice when you're at +6!

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen Onny man. If the opponent throws, you won't get a MC or a crumble with - hence pretty low payoff. You'll loose to any attack in the game basicly that's done at once as your fastest attack is 12 frames and you're 6 frames back (12+6 = 18) so no, it's not such a big nightmare and you are in trouble at -6.
Maddy made a great point about how you have to set these things up by doing ETE's etc first prior to using it. Reverse nitaku doesn't come without risk otherwise people would be doing them all the time. Oh yeah, and you'll also loose to the standing which apparently according to people here is a common and good option for your opponent when he's +6! ^__^

Brads + should never be done up close or if you expect an evade at +6 - if you catch the person evading you're at diss after the hit, you'll loose to a elbow+ classattack done against you as RN and even if you MC it's not great payoff. Well, no news I'm not a fan of Brads circulars - I mainly use them to set up a evadeattack

Do something semicircular like or a delayed attack etc instead. It's funny how everybody says that delayed attacks are soooo common, japanese Gosu, that they become a big factor in RN but when I try to talk about using them it's like "Delayed attacks can't be done! Do you know just frame moves?!!". Go figure.

Onny, here's a great Brad tip imo for you: go into training with Brad and record Aki doing > or >Evade . Then try to do one of his delayattack options with good stats on normal hit to win against both. If you don't want to go with the you could do a + aswell for example (which has it's advantages). Try it out for a while and you'll see winning over both options isn't that hard. Delay attacks rule! Can talk about it at #vf-uk later or something - Brad has great launchers actually (minus 46k) so take advantage of them!

[ QUOTE ]
well heres the big question kiwe
can you within the 2 frame leeway of -4 and -6 be able to distinguish the difference of normal DE to SDE and react appropriately in the situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not the easiest thing but then again I get gaurdstunned. Akira changes footpos when doing a SDE and not when doing a DE. If you can't distinguish well enough between the two you'll be eating DE>Evadeattack (wins over both a throw and attack threat if dodged right way) all day and other harsh things like shldrms (aki can do fucked up things like get a DE blocked and win with a shldrm against Sarahs Elbow after at -3). Learning to distinguish between the two is very important and even worth putting time into imo. Other then that there's really no point in an aki doing a DE other then as a fuck up in Evo (but ppl will argue this) as the opportunity of using it as a potenial setup kinda fades to the potenial dmg of the SDE so when in doubt you can pretty much expect a SDE. Oh well, there's always FT.

/KiwE (Isn't it cool how everybody is using the term RN all of the sudden? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

 

Re: Well TT

[ QUOTE ]
KiwE said:

Other then that there's really no point in an aki doing a DE other then as a fuck up in Evo

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont play Akira, but Homestay Akira would 99% of the time use DE instead of SDE in closed stance. I guess the damage is close enough to use it and save yourself the risk.

 

Re: Nah...

I wonder where you get all your funny pictures. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Re: Well TT

Shang: I got your point clear. My point was the RN with a big move should not be done without proper setups.
Let opponent know you are relying on EDTEG or doing nothing after a move gets blocked. They will try non delayed attacks to beat out your moves and see you get an evade or block it standing. That's when they will change to use a delay attack or throw, and then setup's all done.

The good thing about this flow chart is when you crash their delayed attack options as well, you can have your opponent thinking "I don't know what to do now". That will put you in an upper position game flow wise, and you know how important it is especailly when you play death matches against someone. (In other words, it's a tactic for mental discouragement.)


Kiwie: As for a high P in an advantaged situation, I said it's a good option cause of a few reasons.

First, say in Akira vs Akira with -3 situation(a DE gets blocked for example), the Akira in disadvantage can do those things.

1.EDTEG
2. ARE
3. ECDG
4. Just guard
5.Box step
6. RN

Say if you choose to SDE as you have the advantage, let's think about possible result in each case.

From the case 1 through 5, the SDE will fail as Akira1 will either evade it or block it(case #4). SDE will only win when Akira1 chose to use RN.


Let's see how high P would do in the same situation.
In case of #1,2,3 and 5, Akira 1 will get a counter evade, but a high P unlike SDE will give you an advantage even if they get a counter evade. In case of #4, you will get +1 as Akira1 guarded a high P.

In addition, against RN, high P will beat out every move but a low P.

High P is the safest attack that you can throw out in an advantaged situation. In a medium-large advantage, it often catches someone's backdash attempt, hence the boxstep straight loses to high P in some cases. (on the other hand, a low P can never catch a bachdash)



On DE over SDE, DE's very useful against hevies as you don't want to use SDE on Jeff or Wolf and get it blocked. -6 situation against them is bad as your fastest attack can be beaten by their knee, forcing you to choose a defensive techniques over RN. (Too much risk) Also, ARE after DE is much easier than ARE after SDE.



Lastly, on the subject of how much frames you have to wait to hit someone out of a failed evade depends on the recovery frames of the move they used and the timing that they input their evade after the move gets blocked.



Keep the discussion coming. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


-maddy-

 

Re: Well TT

Yeah Maddy but once again, I've never referred and will never refer to the discussion when it comes to doing a at +3 as in your DE example. There's a huge huge huge difference between doing a at +3 or +6. One of the most common things for a dissadvantaged opponent to do at -3 for example is to do a simple to limit your options. Your launchers and everything above elbow 15 frames will loose to the 2p and hence all he has to fear, normally (of course one could theorpr0n about backdash punishing etc) would be a elbow class attack. At -6 it makes no sense for him to do it as he'll still eat a 18 frame launcher - correct?

Furthermore, not everything on your list of options have equal worth. That is; if one covers 4 out of 5 options one shouldn't expect a 80% succsess rate ingame.

It's all about how you label things / look at them. I take it you group a and a big launcher in the same RN categori while 4 out of 6 options are centered around Evades (which could be it's own category). If it had any reference ingame the best thing to do every time you were +3 was to do a fullycircular move (or i Akis case a delayed attack) - but that's where theoryfighter and the real world collides - it is not.

Seriously - ARE? How many people do you actually know of who does this after a (I mean a real ARE that wins against all the options it's supposed to do)? It's probably not even a vaild option as you need to hitscann and do further damage (which you wouldn't need after a + for example in which ARE would be more applicable) in case you got a MC with the but I will not go into much more debate amongst your opponents options at -3 as it wasn't, and still isn't the case. -6 was what I was talking about and if you should / it's common to do a punch when you're +6. Something like ARE immideatly gets out of the picture amongst your opponents options then directly.

An important thing to remember and should be in everybodys mind is that to much of this has come to be centered around Aki and therefor not really general in some instances to VF as Aki's weakness is, arguably, his circular tools. Say you're +6 and you're playing Jacky and you have a fully circular + at 17 frames - compare it to your opponents options at -3 and count how many it will win against. If you guess right which way the other Aki is going to evade and you do + how many options will you win against?

Here's my basic way of seeing this:

Imo it's simply not bright to throw away a +6 advantage and a potenial launcher in order to get a possible new advantage and nothing garanteed!

Another question which I find is very basic to the discussion: Who says that if your punch gets evaded you retain the advantage???

Nandeska??

Try having your punch evaded in trainingmode and the opponent evading it > punching attack and you doing p(gets evaded)>p or something similar and tell me who wins?

It's not a freakin failed evade with 25 frames for you to have fun with, it's a succesful one and it's his advantage if he evades your punch!

Btw I believe you can boxstep away from a punch at -3 and evade it just like everything else when doing a boxstep its just that since the punch is fast and you have to have inputted your commandinput prior to the punch you have to do it really fast. Aka a doesn't win over a boxstep imo.

Syiko; That Homestay does DE over SDE in 99 cases out of 100 due to stance / evaluating the risk that way is just plain BS. I could find a clip from final tourney where he does a SDE in closed stance in, like, 2 seconds if I wanted to. Intresting stuff about against HW's from Maddy.


Over and Out / KiwE

 

Re: Nah...

Grow up Shang! You're not in middle school any more.

 

Re: Nah...

[ QUOTE ]
ice-9 said:

Grow up Shang! You're not in middle school any more.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he's just still in diabers that's why he's always whinie & crying.

 

[ QUOTE ]
ice-9 said:

Oh please lah, Jacky is a perfect abare character in Evo and still a good one in FT: for one-third damage, which is uncounterable, + with a canned follow-up to make it a little safer

Kage is NOT a good abare character in Evo as he doesn't have any big and fast moves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jacky is very good for reverse nitaku in FT, but not for --- what about his ? It is easier to do than the launcher, you don't need to worry about stance and weight combos, it comes out really fast... If the opponent blocks the attack then you can stop at the second hit, or use his charge attack which they may or may not deal with successfully... I've also used this attack to hit people doing delayed attacks too... If Jacky is at disadv and throws this out, if the opponent (for whatever reasons) delays his attack this could easily nail them... I really don't see why you'd do or instead of .

And if you think your opponent is going to throw you and you are Kage, in FT you should use his new dragon punch combo... Sure it can be tough to do, but it does major damage... There was some guy who I played against in Shinjuku Sportsland who beat me basically because he was really good at reverse nitaku with this...

Just tonight I was playing against a tsuwamono Pai, and she was wrecking my Kage with p throw and other stuff... I'm not good at reverse nitaku with Kage, but when I switched over to Jacky I messed him up with ... Really easy to throw out in a fight and stuff... I'd almost say it is Jacky's best move...

That is all,

-Alex

 

Yeah, I agree that is a great nitaku tool as well. gives the added advantage of being mid, and it's hard to argue with the huge damage.

I also agree with Kage's suped up DP--I said so as much in my first post on FT impressions, that he now finally has a real RN threat. Unfortunately, I found it really, really hard to execute, and in my two days in Kyoto and Tokyo I never saw anyone pull it off consistently, and very few used it at all.

In clips, you still see people doing DPK after +.

 

HERE IS ICE9 + GF in JAPAN!!!!

 

is this bad?? i think its good..
its beats the time i was getting oral pleasure in a back seat and some psycho (like me) was just watching me,, then the bastard had the audacity to slash my tires...
that is getting owned ..