Proof that Kage is a cheap motherfucker!

Has anyone noticed that none of the vf vets disagree with shang other than the kage players. And they seemed to get very vocal after shang loses his ability to rebuttal. Cheap Shot. This thread smells, no stinks of bias.

Doesnt tiers matter more in midlevel play, because you can more appropiately use your inherent edge of your tier on mid level players than high level play? Bang spot on? Evo east champ Denkai also admittedly used Kage to gain an edge over certain opponents when Jacky wasnt working out so great in recent tournaments as well. Proof and fact in action.

I also do remember someone screaming THANK YOU DENKAI !!! at the top of his lungs, when new edges to exploit were found and abused with Kage. Hypocricy at its best.

I dont care if kage is or isnt cheap by this threads standards, but the hypocricy and bias reeks so bad, I had to post. Thanks to Hyunster and Srider to keeping this thread on an even keel, with some practical logic. Not by exploiting obscure situations to prove a point.

As much as kage players here like to complain about this move and that, I've personally seen them use those moves. I mean if it was so terrible, why am I still a victim of the attacks. Why would even high level players like Jin still use those moves. It went somewhere from Point A (i will use this move) to Point C (risk/reward sucks). What happened to point B, this move works because I have so many other options to keep players on edge. Does yomi not apply to kage players for some reason? Clouded judgement seems to rule here, and people wonder why the vets dont post anymore.

 

I've played VF1, VF2, and VF4 and every single time I wanted to win I would pick Jacky.
I'm pretty sure everyone remembers what a beast VF4 Jacky was and how easy it was to pick him up and whoop ass.
I'm glad that he got nerfed because I was only playing Westerners and it was too easy to win with him.

When I started playing Evo I picked up Brad because I love Muay Thai. I did not know that he was a low tier character at the time but I did notice how hard it was for me to win using him. When I found out that he was low-tier it didn't discourage me though, it only made me that much prouder whenever I would win with him.

I know that every revision of VF, Sega tries to make the game more balanced because they know that they're not perfect and neither is VF. As they balance and tweak the game some characters become stronger and/or easier to play with and some characters weaker and/or more difficult to play with.

So I dont see what's the big upset with pointing out that Kage has been blessed, yet again, with a better throw game than most characters and better moves/options.

Is it really that shocking that one of the JAPANESE characters in a fighting game made by JAPANESE game developers is the most powerful in the game?

 

No not really I'm not being particularly serious in most of my posts. I recognised that I'd need to pick up another player to learn about core mechanics better than I could with Kage tbh.

Just detected an air of snobbishness so I thought I'd question you. I was mainly referring to this post:

But if Sega balance and revise the game based on data from results from the best players, and if at the uber level there isn't the level of disparity at the top that there is at an average level.

How can you possibly solve this problem?

The one thing that nobody in the Kage is Cheap camp has done is suggest a solution.

Also, don't the players gameplay choices start at character select, not after you hear 'fight'?

Play to win has to be the most fundamental concept.

Another point that occurs to me is that the reason for disparity between the western game and the Japanese game is that the players aren't presented with the same obstacles to overcome, well now you are, raise your game and find a way to win.

 

How can you have a mid level tier list, if the player is incomplete how can you create any kind valid data that incorporates him?

This is a tier list for guy's that suck at this aspect of the game, this is the list for guy's that are better at this aspect.

Balancing isn't an exact science when you're talking about the best?

[Sorry for the double post]

 

eventually every character will go through this type of discussion. just play to win and do what works and if people rather pull the cheap card than actually get better at the game then let them. this discussion reminds me of this...

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/

 

Garbage... those things that you've said... have been said since the evo days....

You raised nothing new, and your questions/concerns have been addressed numerous times by people on both sides of the fence even in this thread.

There is no point for a mid-level tier list, cause it will be the same as top-level tier list.

There is no point to ask for a solution cause it can never satisfy anyone.

I have already made it clear that my suggestion is to either play Kage or any other top tier character, or just to stfu and deal with it. It still doesn't change the fact though, of what Shang is trying to get across with this thread.

I really don't care about the game being balanced, it's not a problem to begin with. No matter how balanced the game is... it's still being made by humans, and played by humans. No matter how you look at it, there will always be a certain degree of human bias, and exploitation as a result. Just recognize that it's there and deal with it.

 

Or maybe people in general find it useless to even start to dissagree with someone who can't or isn't interested in discussion. Or maybe topplayers in general have left the site in general due to that level of discussion being had of this sort. Or maybe it has to do with two of the few left posting - Ice-9 and Myke, are (better) Kage players then he is and has insight in the matter. All of which are valid, and imo, more plausible reasons. Who cares, his banned for being an ass not for what he says. No news I don't like the guy so chalk me one up on the conspiracy board.

Srider 4k on MC? It's used cause of it's sabaki properties, Kages don't go around throwing this move in +7 adv do they?. It's also +3 on MC, where is this information from that you can't duck the 0f-throw if Kage turns from BT and tries to throw you coming from? I was/am pretty sured you need to be +5 (blackbook). If there's one thing to hate about Kage it's 2k+g imo lol =)

 

I'm out of here until everyone else is caught up on VF knowledge.

 

i guess, we'll see you in 5 yrs time?

 

Kage or his use doesn't concern me much - still, if Shang was talking about something I rather cared about, I don't think I would want to get in a discussion with him. Too much name-calling to filter through for my tastes. So rather than bias - for me it would be the want for objective discourse (of course, maybe I'm biased towards that).

I think there's lots of good info in this thread after sifting through emotional tirades. Too bad that is so much work.

I don't like the way Shang conducts himself on VFDC. I'm glad he's gone again.

I also don't think Shang's ban has anything to do with bashing Kage.


At all.


Take out the Kage and replace it with, say, Vanessa - ban warranted all the same.

EDIT: Here's something else - when Shang comes to my house, he treats me really well. Playing VF with him is great. He knows a lot about the game. I can talk to him about non-VF stuff and have cool conversations. At the same time, when players who'd never met Shang were considering coming to SoCal back in March, it made a difference when I told some of them "you know, it's unlikely Shang will talk like that to your face - I don't think his presence will cause general discomfort."

No matter how much I like Shang and appreciate his cool qualities, I don't want to defend his pummeling on this board.

I learned something new last night - I learned a reason why flames in general can do damage over long periods of time on VFDC...

They're permanent.

Unlike many sites I visit, there's no fucking swear filter here. There's no higher-than-thou morality monger deleting every gayfaggotfuckintheass phrase. Even TOPICS can have profanity. With that freedom comes at least this price - new players who don't know anyone here may come across flames that turn them off to this community. I don't want that. Just like I wouldn't hang a sign in my house during gatherings that says "n00b UR so fucked prepare for PWNAGE and just STFU!!1!one"

 

I personally understand that Kage has an advantages over a lot of characters. However that doesn't bug me so much because that's part of the game. Yeah he's cheap, but if all I can do is cry cheap, then I'll never learn to get past the move cause in mind I've already been defeated.

I don't play Sarah cause I think VF is so almighty balanced that I'm not gonna notice she is kind of weak. I play Sarah cause I liked the character when I picked up VF4 EVO and preferred playing her over the other characters. I continued to play her in FT and I will still play her in VF5 irreguardless of her apparent weakness cause I simply like the character, that's all.

I think whats more important now is training to adapt/deal with/overcome the Kage cheese or we'll keep seeing this thread over and over again. I mean seriously, when Ken. I came over and said he was gonna start playing Kage (and supposedly real cheap Kage) to help improve SoCal's play level, I said "Go for it dude."

The last anti-Kage lesson I got was from PheonixDth which was a long time ago on FT. I don't know if Alex still plays or where he plays, I don't care about weither or not Myke/Ice-9 is defending Kage cause they are Kage players or weither Shang is overstating Kage's strength. I want to get better at this game and simply learn to deal with Kage (cheap or not, however you look at it). With all the division going on, all I can do is play where there is comp listed in SoCal.

When Ken. I choose to pick Kage, I was kind of glad cause I remember losing really badly to Kage whenever I played anyone who knew anything about him. I wish people would just play any character they wanted to play (cheap/top tier/whatever) so long as that meant they would play more. Everytime I play "cheap" characters like Kage, Eileen, and Lei Fei. Even though I get owned alot I learn new things about them and new counters for certain situations. I learn twice as much from vets when I get the chance to play them cause of there enormous experience. If all the vets stop posting and stop playing, I have to learn from frame data and black book translations which are no where near as good as learning from another person who is owning you to death.

So what I'm basically saying is:

Can't we all just play more and learn to overcome this?

Doesn't involve any negativity, name calling, complaining about how America/NA/West sucks at VF, crying over tiers. Not to say that isn't true or anything, but I'd rather play and learn how to deal with Kage, than argue about his cheapness and get no where even if you win whatever side of the argument your on.

 

im actually surprised this is the only thread complaining about cheapness. because when i play my cousin(who plays kage and wolf) with my brad the first thing he complains about is when i punch then grab him or mix it up with punch then 6+p. then he tells me to stop turtleing and other things like that. i know when i get to a tournament(which will hopefully be at the end of this month) i know im going to hear this from at least 1 person.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clouded judgement seems to rule here, and people wonder why the vets dont post anymore. </div></div>

This thread is nothing new. Shang has had problems with Kage's character design since VF4 days. The Vets don't post because we are all too busy with life.

Shang is an oddity. He is over 30, married and still flaming. I agree with Plague I don't think Shang's ban has anything to do with bashing Kage and I'm glad he is gone as well. Isn't this the third or fourth time around? He's still not learning.

 

Myke stated it pretty well. I'll just add a few points:

- Neither Myke nor I at any point in this thread claimed that Kage is not top tier. If you believe Enterbrain (which I do), he is top tier along with LEI FEI, EILEEN, Pai and Shun.

- Hyun I play Jeffry specifically to shut people up when they start to complain about Kage, and you know what most people here can't beat my Jeffry. I play Kage not because he is strong, I play him because that's just the character I've played with since Day 1. What's insiduous though is your unstated accusations in what you write -- in that somehow, in order to win, Myke and I need to lean on playing Kage as if he was a crutch to support our lack of skill. Are you surprised that we came out to defend the notion that Kage is not actually overpowered? That there are trade-offs to his best moves? C'mon, don't play dumb.

- Srider all I'm saying is that if I had to build a VF character and had to choose between having /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, I would prefer /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. The only reason I brought that up is because you were complaining about /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif vs /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif which I found odd because I consider the former more useful than the latter. Also, just as you invited me to play Lau, I also invite you to play Kage if you fear him so much. God knows I need experience playing against VF5 Kages.

- Denkai's Kage is weird. His Kage is not "normal." If I had to play 100 matches in a row, I would DEFINITELY prefer to play against his Kage than his Jacky because in the long run fundamentals win out and Denkai is IMO a better player using Jacky than Kage (when I last played him at least). Could Denkai beat Namflow with Kage in that tourney final? I'll bet money hells no. So why was he successful against Rodney and me? Because we were mind fucked that's why -- it was mental, not because Denkai's Kage was actually fundamentally good. (Plus I had never actually played against Kage in VF5 aside from Shang who doesn't even use Kage's SH stance.)

- Alex if you want to talk about hyprocrisy, I find it incredibly hypocritical when players of top tier characters criticize other players for playing top tier characters. Let's see you make a public apology for playing Lei Fei. If these complaints were coming from a Sarah, Aoi or Jeffry player I would be a lot more understanding. But coming from you or Srider? Sorry, I'm going to call you out.

 

I think we all have different understandings of how tiers work so let's just clarify.

Mid or low level play do not affect tiers AT ALL because at that level the player isnt even using a character to their full potential. As such, when discussing tiers, low or mid level play is discounted.

In other words, just because Lei, Kage, Lau and Jacky dominate at low or mid levels, doesn't mean that they are unbalanced. It just means that the full potential of the other characters are more difficult to tap.

My 1st dan Lau winning 100 times straight against my baby brother means nothing. Shang's Kage winning 100 times against Hyunster means nothing. The only conclusion you can make is that Shang's Kage is better than his Wolf. Who cares?

If you show me my shitty Lau winning 100 times against Mukki's Akira or Shang's strong Kage winning 100 times against Itabashi's Shun, then I might think differently.

But like I said, play at my level, and most likely, even play at Shang and Hyun's much higher level (than mine) doesn't mean shit.

 

where is this tier ranking? I am starting to pick up VF5, and knowing my dexterity, I need ALL the help I can get. I think I should choose one of the top tier character instead of Vanessa. Maybe Shun or Eileen /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Is there any tournaments in Japan recently for VF5? Which characters are the winners?

 

Lei Fei was the winner in the last Japanese national tournament while Shun took second. Every character was represented in that tournament. A Lion won the national tournament before that.

According to Enterbrain, the latest tier list is the following:
S: Eileen, Lei Fei, Kage, Pai, Shun
A: Brad, Goh, Jacky, Lau, Vanessa, Wolf
B: Akira, El Blaze, Jeffry, Lion
C: Aoi, Sarah

As you can see Vanessa is plenty strong. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif