PS3's Weak AI

Let me say this you nwont really be "GIPPED" its just the timing is different, the clash changes everything, and those noobs at SEGA were to honorable to feel like "cheating" and
just downloading all the Ai they had from EVO, which At this point I wish they did. A bit of a rush job on AIA yes to get the game out. But maybe some of the shift went to making the ARCADE AI better, FOR SOME CHARACTers. NOT JEF OR Wolf. But LION (2nd) match, beat me SEVERAL (20) times in arcade mode in a row. Mind you many of those matches were a sliver away from me killing him, but still. And AKIRA will SPOD you to death in arcade mode, repeatedly! The only flaw in akiras attack AI is he almost aways throws punches , no Knees or f f +K,k. So its easy to use GOh, (my fav char) and parry, tsukami him to death. Cheese? Yes? Easy to do on "very hard" mode? YEs, Too easy. And AKIRA is the FINAL Match in arcade mode, mind you.

But dural is still a monster AI shell come back from a 0-1 defecit and own you, sending you to GAMe OVER credits so much youll want to punch the screen, just like old VF3. vf4 and vf4 evo.


Find some solace in that, and use the damn VS mode.

And turn off the Commentator mode unless its in Vf tv, its too disctracting,. albiet accurate and good.

 

I think my point is proven.

 

As you may or may not know, in any given task you are bounded by limited resources. Limited time, money, budget, people, tools, etc. I don't know why AM2 downgraded the console extras for PS3 VF5 (and let's be clear, I agree that it's a downgrade), but I'm willing to bet it was one of the above.

- Remember that VF5 was released 4-5 months after the console release. 4-5 months! That's pretty fast. Some people would say they don't mind waiting longer if they could get more, and some people would say they wanted it soooner. Regardless, AM2 had a release deadline to make.

- Version B Knockout Trial AI. Well I've never played that mode so I don't know how the PS3 AI compares, but Version B was released in mid-December. A game's development usually gets "finalized" (in the sense of no new code, just testing of existing code) a month before release, which means that whoever did the PS3 port would only have a few weeks to work with Knockout Trial.

- Arcade AI is NOT directly portable to the PS3. The CPU handles AI, not the GPU, and so in that respect Lindbergh is not similar to the PS3. So porting arcade AI would take time.

- Evo AI...the idea of porting Evo AI to the PS3 version is ludicrous. They're different games on different engines on different systems! How about porting your Evo style of play to VF5? How well will that work? Actually, one criticism I would add is that AM2 relied too much on VF4 logic for the VF5 AI. Some of the combos the AI performs are VF4 max damage combos, not VF5. So if anything, AM2 used too much of Evo/FT data.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know, someone else recently tried to make me out to be some kind of complaining windbag that did nothing but bitch, and I've put my money where my big mouth is, proving that I DO care about this game. Outside of the mods, Noodals, and a handfull others like Supergolden, I'm one of the few people working to bring new info from the game/books the the forums.</div></div>

You called AM2 lazy snobs. Let's turn it back to you. While you have written a lot of valuable posts--and I would like to think that I consistently thank you for your efforts--you could certainly do more than you have currently. Why don't you? Is it because you're lazy? No, it's because you prioritize your time a certain way, and you do what you choose to do. So it is with AM2 so don't be so quick to make personal attacks.

How many tatoos do you do a day? Why isn't it 4x that amount, you lazy slob?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are these threads just about bitching? If you can't be objective enough to look at the good WITH the bad in anything, you've been blinded by your love for it.</div></div>

If your original post had gone along the lines of "PS3 AI is not as good as I expected, and I am disappointed by it," I would have agreed with you and we would have moved on. Instead, you go on to say things like AM2 programmers are lazy slobs (ironic because I'm willing to bet money they work longer hours than you do), that we are stupid fans for not standing up to them, blah blah blah. That add-on stuff is what I call unconstructive, whiny negativity that does nothing to improve the situation.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While the weaker AI making Quest not as good of a training tool as it used to be is an issue, the larger issue here (which Optimus, Shang and others seem to get) is that what Sega's giving fans outside Japan is getting worse and worse.</div></div>

As I've said in a previous post, if we want to change Sega's mind it is not to bitch and complain and create the kind of negativity that would turn off newcomers to the series. If we want to change Sega's mind to invest more in VF ex-Japan it is to help build a local community that would translate into business success.

I'm not saying you don't do the latter. You do. That's not what I'm responding to; I'm responding to the fact that this thread is about the former.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How can I practice OM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif vs. Tech Rolls with a cpu that doesn't TR?</div></div>

I don't know what's wrong with your copy but the AI TRs in mine.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's selling poorly in Japan</div></div>

Made #1 in the weekly charts, so I wouldn't characterise it as poor. Also, it's selling off a very low base of PS3s sold in Japan. Don't forget that the PS3 attach rate in Japan is very, very low--in other words, the early adopting Japanese seem to be buying PS3s not to just to play games.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As consumers, we should organize and relay our complaints to people who have an audience with Am2 (like 1up seems to, don't we know some people over there? I seem to remember seeing some people from VFDC in some kind of video at the 1up office...). For my part, when I talked about this issue with my contact at SOA, he said he didn't think anyone at SOA has a good enough relationship with Am2 to get them to listen. I say call them out in the media, embarass them. Magazines etc need to stop sucking VF's dick because it's "hardcore" to do so. The consumers (as I said, myself included) need to quit shelling out $$$ because we're so desperate that we'll buy a $650 console, some Elecoms that Am2 basically nerfed to sell their own (broken) sticks, MORE Hori sticks while we're sitting on mountains of them, and the game for $80. All that and I get a version that's much LAMER than last time, and I'm not supposed to complain?</div></div>

Like I stated in a previous post, voting with your dollars will lead to lousier ports in the future because Sega will interpret low sales as further proof that VF is not worthy of investment outside of Japanese arcades. Pretend you are the head of games development at Sega. You have a limited number of dollars in which to invest. How much of that do you invest in VF6 for console release? Or do you invest in some other game with a better track record?

You have every right to complain as a consumer. But there's constructive complaints and there's unhelpful, whiny negativity.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of the hardcore VF fans need to quit sucking VF's dick as well, because doing so makes you a moron. </div></div>

Yeah I agree, but you don't have to crush Sega's balls either.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As consumers, we should organize and relay our complaints to people who have an audience with Am2 (like 1up seems to, don't we know some people over there? I seem to remember seeing some people from VFDC in some kind of video at the 1up office...). For my part, when I talked about this issue with my contact at SOA, he said he didn't think anyone at SOA has a good enough relationship with Am2 to get them to listen. I say call them out in the media, embarass them. Magazines etc need to stop sucking VF's dick because it's "hardcore" to do so. The consumers (as I said, myself included) need to quit shelling out $$$ because we're so desperate that we'll buy a $650 console, some Elecoms that Am2 basically nerfed to sell their own (broken) sticks, MORE Hori sticks while we're sitting on mountains of them, and the game for $80. All that and I get a version that's much LAMER than last time, and I'm not supposed to complain?</div></div>

If you watched the segment about VF5, I called them out on these issues. The elecom 202 converter DO work. Unfortunately, most people got the 101's due to Tekken DR. Sega didn't nerf the converters, it's the way PS3 works. I can even make a video next time of the Elecom 202 working for VF5.

But you know what? the converters do lag a bit, so it's not your best choice even though it does work.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is still going round in circles I see. Can the people who agree the AI is shit and wants to do something about it suggest how we get in touch with the 360 team. Or how to contact the ps3 team concerning the possibility of patches. (although I doubt that). Whatever we thinks best. As soon as we agree on that then we can go about doing something about it. More posts on how the AI is fine or whatever just wont help this thread. So.... any suggestions? </div></div>

Rayne:

There is a big huge link on Sega of America's VF5 website where it says "ask the producer."
http://www.sega.com/gamesite/vf5/phase2/index.html
It's been there for weeks. I'll even post the email address directly.

virtuafighter@segaamerica.com

Now that you know how to reach them, can you cook something up that's presentable, convincing, and in a timely fashion? Are you willing to do this even though it may very well not change anything?

 

I'm sorry but this is just absolutely ridiculous. How could anyone possibly still defend Sega's production quality of this game?

They had everything they needed in VF4:Evo in terms of gameplay modes and AI scripts and only needed to convert them and update them to fit the new movelists (and write two new scripts for El Blaze/Eileen) to fit VF5.

Graphics and sound wise almost everything was already done and just had to be converted to be able to run from a PS3....ports of games are done ALL THE TIME and it takes almost no effort for a company like Sega that's been doing it for years. I mean the game looks and sounds exactly like the arcade, right?

Sega put out an incomplete and rushed product in VF5, the AI should have been up to the level of Evo, no excuses. They rushed the game like they rushed the broken VSHG. And who is to pay for it? Virtua Fighter fans....woohoo.

 

Ok, cant we Hack this thing? Vf4 had a PROGRAm your OWN Ai mode, VF4 EVO had great A.I. out the box, and Vf5 works on a Linux based system. Where are you super Nerds when we need you?!??! There has to be a way to change this ourselves. If youi can get the replays online like youve been doing, there must be a way to analyze and twek the ai codes, then save them on the Ps3 hdd. Where theres a will theres a way. We need a GAMESHARK for PS3 , pronto!!!! If Grand theft auto, San andreas is possible, anything is.

Peace and hair Grease

 

About the 3 above mentioned games I meant to say we need to piece those 3 elements to gether, using Linux C sharp. . net or whatever. And Sega needs to stop getting amnesia after each successful game.
'Really I think the culprit behind this A.I. screw up is it was a public relations thing to make it easy for all Ps3 players to play"gotta catch em all" with the items and clothes, rather than the elite like us.

is it okay if I say "us" can I be an honarary elite????

 

GoDokunoDan,

There is actually a secret mode in VF5 that Sega haven't told people about. If you play quest mode and triple excellent all your opponents 1000 times in a row, the game will recognize you as a top level VF player and will unlock extra items (some NICE revealing costumes for the girls too! ) and "JAPANESE HARD-ON MODE" where the AI is even better than top Japanese players like Chibita. They even said when they did testing, chibita couldn't win even once.

If you lose at all just once or if you don't get triple excellent in all your matches, then you have to start over. There is no counter that tells you how many you've done, so you just have to keep on going until you unlock it. Give it a try, they put that in to reward players like you who think the AI is too crappy.

 

You had me until this part. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

HOLY SHIT!!! How is the VF scene supposed to grow when you got THE VF website shitting all over the game???
If I was a noob and I read this I wouldn't buy this game I'd say "That game sounds like it sucks, even the guys who love VF say it sucks."
Seriously, is there a mole that actually works for Namco or some other fighting game company that logs on here and just shits all over Sega and VF???
I mean, I have my complaints about the lack of online options and the coulda/woulda/shoulda been better AI...but if VF5 is SO fucking bad, then, WHAT OTHER FIGHTING GAME DO I BUY???

Is there ANY other fighting game as good/fun or as balanced as VF???

Come on, people! Face facts. Even when Sega (or Sony/whoever) fucks up the marketing/sounds/training mode/etc.
the versus gameplay is still unmatched!

No, I am not sucking Sega's dick... I am sucking Sega's clit. Sega is a woman, not a man... and she makes one kick ass fighter. Wether it's Fighting Vipers or Last Bronx, Sega will always get my money.
I dont care if the Japanese get a better VF than the US. As long as it's the best game on the market, I will buy it. And if they wont release it here, guess what? I'll import it.

AI in fighting games have sucked for years but only when VF gets a downgrade in it's AI that's when it's "DOWN WITH SEGA", "I'M NOT BUYING THIS GAME", etc.
Go see if TekkenZaibatsu or any other fighting game thread has a thread talking about how much Tekken/Namco/whoever sucks.
Oh, and since nobody has officially said it, ahem, thanks Sega for being the FIRST fight game to allow personalized character names and quotes from me and my friends to be immortalized in one of your games. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif
Yes, we do have a right to demand a better game but what happens when the game that we are demanding more from, is already one of the best, if not THE best, on the market?
Sega may not interact with us as good as they do with their Japanese consumers but they could choose to not interact with us at all.
I'm just glad I imported this game, it KICKS ASS!!! I havent had this much fun with a fighter since VF2!

 

Last line was a joke . As was yours, albiet unfunny.
Just use that super nerd brain of yours to hack Vf5 and get us some better A.I., Mr. Clash equation.

 

i might catch some heat for this since i am new to the game but i always wondered what you older veteran players of the series would think about the following.

i always thought the true elite fighting game mentality is that all a.i. will do is force bad habits on you when you play live opponents. if you are not practicing against live opponents than your main goal is to be in training mode working on timing, execution, and spacing which develop into your strategy for any specific situation.

so is there truly a reason to be playing quest mode other than to unlock items to customize your character for the elite player? if you need a moving combo dummy you can do that in training. its not like you can practice mindgames and baiting against a.i. either.

so if you were really serious about the game and wish to play it the way it is intended (to beat other players), then why are you complaining about a.i.?

i only say all this because the original intention of the game is to be played in arcades.

 

I agree...

also, an update on voicing your opinions...

submit your comments/feedback/suggestion/complaints to Sega of Japan.
https://sega.jp/opinion/

 

Cause the game is rock fucking solid?

No, it wouldn't be so easy as copying the scripts from VF:EVO to slap em into VF5. New moves, new mechanics, new tempo, lots of things changed preventing a simple copy and paste to occur. And I'm no computer wiz but I do know programming on the PS3 is different than the PS2 so their previous and prior programs wouldn't exactly transfer as is.

All the fluff aside from what was in EVO, we are blessed with a great arcade fighter on a console which we can play at our convenience. Maybe my standards are low from having played so many other fighters, but there's nothing I could want more than a great versus and arcade mode. (Though I absolutely love the customization function rofl).

I just don't get the thinking here though. Some seem so upset by the game. If you don't enjoy it, don't play it, it's fairly simple. If you as a consumer are upset by the product, use the return policy and opt not to play it.

(Think I'm just gona stick to the character faqs /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif I know everyone will hold different opinions and while I think that's great, I hate discussing online.)

EDIT: 001, yeah that's usually exactly what playing the A.I. will get you currently. Not necessarily build bad habbits but definitely builds habbits, ones that may be tough to change if needed against a "live" opponent.

 

Good point. I remember this exact same shit happening the week after Soul Calibur 3 came out... and holy shit did the community fall apart. The difference in this case= VF is a good game, it does best what it is designed to do, kick ass... how does it kick ass? Playing other people. That is what the game is all about, if that is too bare bones... well shit, Sega fucked up then (though I'm sure Sony had a part in pushing this game to release). If VS. is all you need, Sega did well. If a PS3 is too expensive? Sony fucked up.

I probably won't buy a PS3 for another 4-6 months though... お金がありません！

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No, I am not sucking Sega's dick... I am sucking Sega's clit. </div></div>

OMG! It exists!!!

That be awesome to see... A.I. that falls for G-cancels. That'd be hot shit.

 

tonyfamilia -- haha, your post made me laugh and was right on. So many other things could've gone wrong. The PS3 version may not have been arcade perfect, for instance!

001 -- completely agree with you. As good as the Evo AI was, I picked up bad habits from it.

 

Let me just say that anybody who didnt buy a PS 3 day one is NOT a TRUE HARDCORE VF player. I had my money saved for a Ps3 10 months before launch, SOLEY for VF5 on the PS3. Vf5 is their killer app. And while I was waiting 3 months for VF5 to come out. I was Playing Vf4 EVO nonstop on ps3, like I had been doing(ps2) for 3 years prior.


001 you obviously are NEW to this game as you said and must never have played through Vf 4 evo. In a high level match, near the end of Quest mode, if you make ONEmistake it could cost you 30% of your enegry , which by the last seconds of a match could mean all your remaining energy.

Dont compare AI you played against in DOA 3 or 4 or Tekken to VF 4 Evos. This Ai is godly. Almost perfect . The AI fuzzy guards, reversals , Croch dashes, down attacks, throw escapes, everythin you could think a player could do, only with frightening accuracy and relentless ness. The A.I> in EVO made me better at VF4, because it showed me sick moves to learn (as the majority of the move lists have Japanese names i dont know what the f---- they mean) . that and combos , and reaction speed to conquer the miniscule openings the computer leaves in their defenses.

And the A.I. doesnt feel pity or remorse , or Fatigue, Doesnt make mistakes and ABSOLUTELY will not stop , untillyou are DEAD! The problem is with Vf 5 is in quest mode you cant crank up the difficulty past "hard" like you can in ARCADE MODE. Quest mode should have two more difficulty modes, VERY HARD, and ELITE. The dicks that did the console versions interface really dropped the ball.

 

Good job scaring the kid, GoDokunoDan. : p

As for this "horrid" A.I., why not get a friend, hopefully you DO have some type of friend, and make them play Virtua Fighter? Hell, give them a lecture that explains exactly why they should play this game at all costs. How it is "the best fighting game to roam god's green earth!" or something along those lines. Hey, i'm just saying it worked for me, as illogical as it may seem, and I now have 3 consistant players that are always up for a challenge. 'Pretty damn good too.

Did I stray off topic? I strayed off topic didn't I? Gah...

 

Apologists are some of the worst type of fans/people. At least I saved about 1000 bucks from not having to buy a ps3, vf5, and sticks!

 

I am far from being an apologist. I am, however, a minimalist. All I ever need in a fighting game is Arcade, Vs,Dojo/Practice, and Options. I buy fighting games to play with friends, not to get involved in the single player or the AI. While the Evo tutorial was rich with content, so is the internet. As was said earlier on this board, we expect too much from a game that for all intents and purposes was designed to be played in the arcade with someone sitting across from you or right next to you. Too much time has been spent complaining about little shit that, in the end, does not matter much.

Coming from the competative PC community, I have seen this happen with every popular game. Quake 3 ~ Quake 4; Unreal Tournament ~ UT2003/2004; Tribes ~ Tribes2 ~ Vengence; Counter Strike 1.3 ~ Counter Strike 1.6 ~ Counter Strike Souce. People resist change. When their favorite game changes, even slightly, they will look for every excuse to rip the game apart; solid or not.