thoughts on VF5R

You are much greater than I so I can't tell you anything. Why don't you tell me
the error of my ways. If Jeffry isn't one of them who is? (Cue Sarah Players)

 

Since I don't know what I'm talking about; I'm just
going to wait for Denkai to show me the light.
Perish the thought that I proceed to misinform the
masses.

 

Typically in fighting games the strong character is generally the big,strong,slow as nails guy that can do big damage. That's kinda true here except for the fact that he isn't really slow nor too risky, lets look at his prime moves. First lets start off with his P..its 12 frames its one frame slower then normal characters but for some skewed reason its the same as Aoi a light weight.

Lets take his massively destructive damaging Knee that happens to execute at 17..that's pretty slow but Jacky Knee-like move the high angle kick is also 17 (Akria's is 18 btw) not too mention its -15 much like the knee..which means in this regards Jacky is actually riskier then Jeffery is ( same speed and disadvantage but in this case the payoff is much greater for Jeff so when you look at it this way in terms of launchers hes Fast and powerful). One last comparison lets take one of Jeff launchers (3pp) and compare it with a similar move that Jacky has (6P+KP) both these moves are mid and combos on the first hit except Jeffery's move happens to be a launcher on normal hit and both are at -13. What I'm trying to get at is that the strong characters are usually the character with the LEAST amount of risk. Logically its the characters that have to work harder for damage that takes the most risk during a match simply because they can always find themselves KO'ed on just 2 major counter moves and those same characters doesn't have any less of a disadvantage when a big move has been defended.

 

Since we got you on here Denkai, how do you feel about the wall combos that Wolf and Jeff are capable of? Would you consider them in line with the rest of the potential damage characters can cause or too powerful?

 

I'll buy that for a buck. However just to put it in perspective, since I'm not very
technical. I feel that playing Jeffry the risk I take is that I don't have as many
options as say other characters so I risk being easily read. Granted there has to
be a reason why Jeffry is not considered good by the japs. Personally I think the
1 frame jab difference is a big deal, maybe that's because of all the online play I do
though.

 

Jeffery is by no means bad by the Japs (look at the latest tier list for prove of that..however Jacky is one of the lowest..but then again the tier list is shit right?). To balance the game out a bit Jeffery cant be too varied hes was designed to be all raw strength. Jeff job is simple..get the sucker on the floor faster then lighting. However, you can be just as predictable using Jacky. Jeffery has a hidden power not written down on paper and that's the fear he creates. Your opponents will be extra cautious around him and for that you can afford not to be too varied. Being easily read isn't the characters fault at all its the player..To Avuil currently I don't think its all that bad however, in R I'm a tad weary considering if that new headbutt move he has is as fast and safe as Tran makes it seems on the videos.(currently he only did this to stupid CPU players that don't struggle so its hard to tell at this point)

 

True on the tier list, I'd rather go by the tournament success charts but then again
japs don't really like Jeff in general and prefer to be ninjas or blondes so guess it's
all bunk.

And people wonder why I'm <=======
I don't get this shit at all haha.
Fuck it, I'm just old and slow.
New Tricks? Blah, wheres my
commodore 64.

 

Just to throw fuel on the fire, rough percentage of movelist that is punishable ( -12 or worse ) and fuzziable (-6 or better ) :

punishable

wolf 9%
vanessa 10%
goh 10%
aoi 13%
jeffry 17%
elblaze 18%
leifei 19%
brad 19%
akira 22%
sarah 23%
eileen 23%
shun 23%
lau 24%
lion 24%
pai 24%
kage 26%
jacky 30%


fuzziable

vanessa 58%
lau 52%
sarah 52%
brad 50%
wolf 50%
goh 50%
leifei 48%
aoi 47%
eileen 42%
jacky 41%
pai 41%
kage 41%
lion 40%
elblaze 37%
akira 34%
jeffry 31%
shun 29%

 

I <3 Jacky lolz

 

Well with Jeffry you have to take into account that he doesn't have that many
moves to begin with. More moves, the higher percentage of those moves will be
punishable regardless of utility......except for Vanessa who breaks the mold.

No wonder Vanessa is so odd to fight against. I can never cleanly hit the bitch after
anything.

 

I don't know. I'm just a poor old Sarah player. Everybody has something to bitch about. There are people bitching about Jeffrey. There are people bitching about Vanessa. There are people even bitching about my beloved Sarah. (why? It's hard enough to win with her!)

I'm amazed at the damage Jeffrey can do so far in R. It's pretty friggin' awesome what he can do against the wall. Imagine the fear when you see him and the random stage you get is the one where the wall is REALLY close. But I'm not that worried though. He didn't get a speed and quickness infusion did he? I haven't seen any of that so far in the vids.

I just want Sarah to have 1.... JUST <u>1</u> defensive move that's actually in her movelist that can stop people cold when she's in trouble. It doesn't have to be a reversal. It doesn't even have to be a sabaki. I'd be happy just with a move that has a built-in back dash. Just something..... please....

 

sarah's biggest strength versus me is that no one uses her so i don't know her moves. u could throw a chun li fireball at me and i'd be like, 'oh, sarah has a fireball...i didn't know that'. LOL, u win plenty holy, u r one the best 4/5 dans i ever fought. What rank u at now? Anyhow, hope she gets the move u want man. Sabakis, reversals, etc, all char should have 1 to play around with, they are fun, and hell shouldn't that be the goal of the game.

 

Doesn't 2P pretty much cover that for all the characters?

 

While it's true that in VF5 version C Jeffry can be played safely, he is STILL the quintessential high risk high reward character. In Version C, if you play safe, you're basically only playing with punch, low punch, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and throws. While that sort of a Jeffry player may beat a lot of people with those moves if played with skill, let me assure he/she will not win consistently on an elite level. To win with Jeffry against the likes of Chibita and Koedo, you need to play him to his strengths -- knee, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, hell even /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. Even then, most tier lists STILL placed Jeffry at C-level. That's why I believe AM2 decided to buff him up even more in VF5R.

Denkai, just like it's not the character's fault that he may appear one-dimensional, it's also not the character's fault that others become scared of him/her. It's all in the mind.

I have no problems whatsoever with Wolf and Jeffry being able to take off insane amounts of damage against walls -- that's how they were designed. However, I DO have a problem with characters like Jean being able to take of 113 damage off an MC sidekick against the wall, because I don't think Jean was designed to take off that kind of damage. (Nor was Jacky in Version A, which was why it was fixed in subsequent versions.)

As for Sarah, she has 10 frame punch. Learn how to use it because it makes a HUGE difference.

 

Same could be said with any character Ice-9. You cant win with just 6p, 1p, 4p2p with Jacky to win at high level either you need to finish strings, HIgh angle, 46K+G same thing applies. Also Big characters like Jeffery and Wolf are supposed to strike fear I mean seriously getting hit with a MC knee can take 107 points WOlf giant swing can take 100 so how is that in the mind? If you were going up against Mike tyson I suppose you shouldn't be afraid..its just all in the mind. The point is and I proved it with frame data that other characters are going through the same disadvantage if not worst when moves are blocked. The difference is Jeff is a one-dimensional character so it makes sense that he takes that much energy. No one is complaining about that but I will say he isn't the riskiest character, not by a long shot

 

Something needs to be done about combo damage and walls. It's too much like Tekken.

It would be nice if someone who has actually played the game comment on it, too.

 

Note to self..... must start using her secret queef move.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL, u win plenty holy, u r one the best 4/5 dans i ever fought. What rank u at now? Anyhow, hope she gets the move u want man. Sabakis, reversals, etc, all char should have 1 to play around with, they are fun, and hell shouldn't that be the goal of the game. </div></div>

I'm 6th dan now. I got promoted last night. Oh yeah!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2p</div></div>

Yeah yeah, I know. Everybody has that. Why don't you tell me ETEG? And fuzzy guard? And throw break? But everybody can't shut down 3/4ths of my FL like Akira or Lion or Aoi or Pai or Vanessa etc with just one move, whether they're disadvantaged, at +frames, sideturned, upside-down, or with their hand up their up butt. I can't help but think as another move of mine gets swept aside..... "Man.... it must be fun to shut somebody down like that."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 10 frame jabs</div></div>

I guess I'm just that good with Sarah because, I don't see the greatness of it unless I'm on offense. What's the speed of Pai's jabs? The sure seem faster to me. And a 10F jab still gets beaten VERY easily by Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, Lion's sabaki, the plethora of Vanessa's sabakis and defensive moves, Goh's, Pai's sabakis and reversals, Aoi's, even friggin Jacky has something. Shun's got moves that duck and dip and have built-in dodges and step-backs. Same with Eileen and Brad's weaves pretty much say "I know you ain't thinking about jabbing me are you?". Lei's got 3 stances that has moves that own it and one that owns it just by standing still!

My defense is my offense when I use Sarah. Well that's great..... until I actually go on defense. I want <u>1</u> Sarah only defensive move. It's not like it's gonna break the balance of power or anything. I wanna get in on the fun too.

 

TBH I'm a little out of date with VF5 Jacky, but the main difference I think is that as a Jacky player the vast majority of moves you use in a match are safe -- /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif strings, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, iageri, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (with hit check). Only occasionally do you go for unsafe moves -- /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif when you want to take big damage, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif for evade/MC. Whereas as a Jeffry player, your mindset is primarily to use his unsafe moves: knee, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that even though Jeffry has safe moves, he's usually played in a risky style. And even though Jacky has unsafe moves, he's usually played in a safe style.

I'd say just look at it as a % of moves used in a match...for Jeffry, the % of unsafe moves used in a match is really high. probably the highest in the game. That's why I consider Jeffry a high risk, high reward character. Maybe Jacky is also very high compared to a character like Pai, but I doubt it's as high has Jeffry.

P.S. Denkai made the point that Jacky's unsafe moves aren't as rewarding as Jeffry's, that's why they're not used. I agree completely with this point, which is why Jacky and Jeffry aren't played the same. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif But Jeffry's safe moves are also not as good as Jacky's.

 

Agreed however P+K K being safe with Hit check is kinda funny seeing how most moves are safe when you hit check them..btw P+K K isn't safe the first hit is -14

 

I've got no problem with damage Jeffrey does (will do?) so far in R. The guy is supposed to do big damage. So many of his moves are slow and plodding and rather easily interrupted or get him killed if blocked. The damage doesn't seem stupidly astronomical. I'm scared of the damage but.... not that scared. It doesn't seem unbalanced. It's not like it's off of a jab or something.